[x] Orchestra + conductor

Now that b2b has moved into orchestra territory, I wonder if the conductor should be included as part of the line-up?

Is he considered a member of the orchestra? I wouldn't say so. Otherwise it seems odd that I usually see "Bob Jones conducting the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra" or whatever...

Feels almost more analogous to the relationship between a band and its producer to me.

I assumed Ruiter was talking about big-band orchestras, not symphony orchestras. As I mentioned in a thread in the Research forum, John Coltrane connects to the Johnny Hodges Orchestra, and Hodges connects to the Duke Ellington Orchestra. It would seem a little ridiculous not to include Duke Ellington in the Duke Ellington Orchestra! Unlike symphony orchestra conductors, a big-band conductor like Ellington is truly a "bandleader" (and also often a composer and arranger).

In some cases the orchestra is named after its conductor, like James Last Orchestra, or it's just simply a nameless orchestra, like Hugo Montenegro & His Orchestra. Then there's an example like the Jazz Composer's Orchestra, which was founded by conductor Michael Mantler.
I think in these cases, where the orchestra doesn't exist without its conductor or where the conductor is also the founder of the orchestra, the conductor should be part of the line-up.

Then there's the symphony orchestras that collaborate with conductors. These collaborations can change: The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra had resident conductors, for example Bernard Haitink, Riccardo Chailly and Mariss Jansons and guest conductors like Herbert Von Karajan and Leonard Bernstein.
In a case like this, where an orchestra exists on its own and is collaborating with different conductors over the years, we could perhaps speak of collaborations without connectivity.

It might well be a bit ridiculous not to include the leader of a band, but that would be consistent with what we're recording here. Is Frank Farian going to be listed as part of Boney M, Milli Vanilli or The Far Corporation? No, because he's not given as a member. Is Derek Lawrence going to be credited for his pivotal role in bringing together (sorry .. my bete noire again) Green Bullfrog? These bands couldn't have happened without these people - granted, but they didn't appear as a member ...

I don't think the role of a conductor should be compared to that of a producer. Orchestra records have producers too...

I think the role of a rock producer is more intrinsic to the sound of the finished product than a conductor. All those Neil Kernon/Mike Stone/Keith Olsen-produced rocktastic outings from the 70s/80s always sounded as much like the producer as the individual bands and when Bryan Adams was produced by Mutt Lange .. he ended up sounding exactly like Shania Leppard... Farian played on, as well as producing and creating those bands: much more reason to credit him than a bloke with a wavy stick.

How would we enter Milli Vanilli?

Let's not argue about producers here, it's a different category with different rules. Orchestra conductors (who are indeed performers) are part of the orchestra in some cases (some not) and we could establish new rules about that.

The credits on the liner notes would be useful in these cases.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that bandleaders _can_ be members, but I'm not coninced they always are, and I always have problems with membership by people whose "performance" cannot be detected on the album... didn't we have this issue with the bands with members who were dancers or spiritual advisors?

In any case, the distinction between the Brian Setzer Orchestra and the London Symphony Orchestra seems useful. I don't think I would treat the conductor of a symphony orchestra as an entity at all, though. He certainly isn't a member but I don't think he counts as a separate artist either.

OK, in that case (with most symphony orchestras) a conductor could be treated as a guest performer.
But the question remains how to treat conductors who have recorded with their own orchestra. I don't think they can be compared to dancers or spiritual advisors either and I'm sure a reviewer of orchestral music could tell you that a conductor's performance can indeed be detected on a recording. Again, different roles, different rules.

What if we add a subsection to rule 2 that says that conductors of orchestras are eligible for inclusion in a band even though they play no instruments? Such a rule would recognize the unique role conductors play in orchestral music (which seems more important than the roles of lyricist-only or lighting-only members). As with any other musician, there would be the possibility of collaborations or guests/non-members.

Good idea.

I'd be OK with that. That allows us to include conductors of their own orchestras, and still exclude conductors of symphony orchestras and similar.

For what it's worth, I disagree. We have here an associated, but non-playing, performer. Is Bernie Taupin part of the Elton John Band? If not, why not - I propose that his contribution to the final work is more important than a conductor of an orchestra. Is the conductor really getting credit for his writing? Maybe his administrative skills in organising the thing? His financial clout? Whatever - it's not because he's a performer - a rule which we've tried to adhere to pretty rigidly so far...

Let's continue this conversation here: [bandtoband.com] http://bandtoband.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5888