[x] Non-playing members?

I just know this will be anathema to you guys but what do you feel about a member who is credited as such but whose membership derives from their writing, particularly a lyricist who is not a musician and thus could never 'appear' on the recording? Could they ever qualify for inclusion?

I believe Keith Reid from Procol Harum is a non-playing member, he only did the lyrics. He's included in the database so I guess there's your answer.

And I believe that Pete Sinfield only did the lyrics for King Crimson, and he is listed as a band member.

I've already had a discussion with the Powers That Be on the subject of Sinfield, but unfortunately I can't find the relevant emails (my insane mania for tidying up coming to the fore).

I think we came to a reasonable solution, I just can't remember what it was.

I knew that Matt would have something to say about King Crimson!

Rule 2 pretty much precludes band members that don't appear musically on the album. I usually think about the requirements for inclusion under Rule 2 as "in the band" and "on the album." We talked about it a bit in

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Pete Sinfield was a member of King Crimson for several of the albums in the database, but I included him in the tree only if he added some sort of sound to the album, usually in the form of "spoken word" if I remember correctly. If Keith Reid is purely a lyricist, I think that his inclusion was probably an oversight on our part.

I suppose one could argue that a member-lyricist is "on the album" in the sense that the lyrics are in the songs. And even if we included member-lyricists, we wouldn't be obligated to include everyone with a songwriting credit because the "in the band" requirement still stands.

One problem with allowing member-lyricists is the difficulty in determing their member status. Was Robert Hunter a member of the Grateful Dead or just a persistent contributor? He certainly co-wrote dozens (hundreds?) of their songs. I don't know.

Thoughts?

Reid is a founding member of Procol Harum, shouldn't he be counted as a band member then? He didn't contribute anything musically but he wrote all the lyrics on every album.

My answer would be: if such a person is actively credited on the LP as being the band's writer or whatever, then he should be included.

Just like Bernie Taupin would be included in "Elton John" were the latter allowable as a band.

I guess I'd want to see the person credited as being part of the band somewhere on the album; the one I was actually looking at was Max Webster's lyricist, Pye Dubois, who is credited in a 'Max Webster is ...' listing on one of their albums. Simply o be acknowledged as 'a' writer doesn't seem exclusive enough ...

I think given Kevin & Mark's vague, hand-waving concept of a band as a "group of people who make music together" or something like that, it's only logical to include in a lineup whoever the band thinks is an important member of their group (i.e. credited as "in the band"), as long as that member has *some* contribution to the album. This is iffy if the band credits a "spiritual advisor" as an actual band member or something, but a lyricist seems more clear-cut than that to me. The band considers that member to be an integral part of their music-making unit, why shouldn't we?

" if such a person is actively credited on the LP as being the band's writer or whatever, then he should be included."

After all, lyrics are an important part of the music - if the lyric writer is credited as a "band member" then they should be included. What would King Crimson or Procol Harum be without their lyrics?

On the other hand I don't think Robert Hunter was ever credited as a band member of Grateful Dead, although he did do some solo albums.

I don't think Kevin and I would ever dispute that there are non-performing members of bands. The main hurdle here is the "on the album" requirement. Sure, a lyricist provides the lyrics that are on the album, but does that mean we should list that lyricist on any album on which the music appears (e.g., a later greatest hits package or live album) or just the first album? And should the same logic be applied to band members who co-wrote the music but didn't play on the album (perhaps because of injury or because they left the band)?

The issue is who the band credits as being in the band. For example, if a real band member co-writes all the songs on an album, leaves the band before the album is cut, but the band credits him as a "band member" on the album anyway (important: this is distinct from them just crediting him somewhere with writing credits, alongside people with engineering and producing credits), then yes, he should be listed on the album.

And compilations/greatest hits albums are just multiple-lineup albums where each lineup should be listed exactly as it is (or would be) listed for the original albums. So if the original album listes someone as a member, they should be listed on the greatest hits album. If not, then not. Live albums seem to make more sense to use the personnel who actually played live, as you would if a band had later membership that played (live) an earlier lineup's work. You wouldn't credit the earlier lineup on the live album.

That makes perfect sense!

And would you credit a non-performing lyricist on a live album who was still "in the band" when the band recorded the album?

Just being on the credits alone doesn't seem to me to merit inclusion. Although the 'wrote the songs and then was injured' theory is plausible (and avoids jumping through hoops to get Adje Van den Berg in the dB), many more albums have members listed who joined after recording. Do they get a spurious entry just because they're on the sleeve? So was Stephen Riley really the drummer on the LA Guns Vertigo debut album? He's on the sleeve but not in the grooves: ergo not a member. I think to get in a person must:
1) Be credited as a member of the band on the album (or where no credits are on the album they absolutely MUST have played on it).
2) Appear on the album.
Songwriters would only get in where they are ONLY songwriters and their songs appear on that album. I would extend this to graphic artists as well. If a band goes as far as to say that the artist is a band member and his art appears on that album, he's a member for me. If it gets any more esoteric than that, I'm struggling to see they can be included. Thus : Stacia is not a member of Hawkwind (I'm not aware she's ever credited but just in case). I can't see that her gyrations can be a part of the recorded work, even extending that to include its packaging. Sri Chimnoy's guru-vic vibes may be all over a Santana album but he's not a member. In writing this, I'm aware my own logic is not perfect but by touch and feel it feels wrong to extend membership just to include loads of writers who were important to various groups.