[x] I contend ..

that Neil Hopwood and Kim Ludman of the Sutherland Brothers Band deserve inclusion because this is different than something as narrowly and obviously defined as 'The Sutherland Brothers'!

The stuff I read made it seem that the two brothers left A New Generation and then recorded as a duo for the first album and then with session musicians for the second. Toss us some URLs so we can ponder this one. (Obviously I should do the same.)

References are few and far between. Nothing is very definitive but certainly nothing says they were sessionmen. [blueaxial.com] http://blueaxial.com/media/page4.htm would at least suggest that Kim Ludman himself believes he was a member?

This page equates their backup band to "session musicians," at least for the second album, and suggests that they merged with Quiver in order to establish a permanent band:

[www.alexgitlin.com] http://www.alexgitlin.com/npp/sbq.htm

Allmusic.com, not that it's the definitive expert, refers to them as a "duo" at least twice and doesn't recognize the players on those first two albums as band members.

That obviously doesn't change what Kim Ludman believes though.

I *think* the key bits to [www.alexgitlin.com] http://www.alexgitlin.com/npp/sbq.htm are "... completed their second album with the use of session musicians" (suggests the first album did't feature sessionistas) and "...the duo composed and recorded ... 'Sailing'". 'Sailing' is on the 'Sutherland Brothers' album where I think they are definitely a duo.

Finally, I see that same page says that "the ensemble ... was henceforth known as the Sutherland Brothers and Quiver." suggesting a single ensemble formed by a merger of two, rather than an ongoing collaboration between two; but that's a whole other long-winded dialogue you hoped I'd let go before :-)

If you agree that the first album ("Sutherland Brothers Band") was a duo release and that the second album ("Lifeboat") was completed with session musicians, and we also know that Ludman and Hopwood only played on the first album (see [www.mathie.demon.co.uk] http://www.mathie.demon.co.uk/sbq/records.html ), then we can't include them anywhere anyway. Right?

As for the ensemble/merging theory (yeah, I was hoping you'd forgotten), I'm open to being convinced otherwise. If you don't mind laying it all out again like you did in that email message, I'd like to see what everyone else thinks. If you think I'm tough on collaborations, you should talk to Kevin...